Posts by Max Divergent

43

Judicial Meeting

by Kool Jo in

so here you are...sitting with a couple of elders at judicial meeting, and you're asked the following question:.

"do you still believe that the fds is the channel that jehovah is using"?.

now is it possible to answer 'no' without being df, or how would you answer that question?.

Max Divergent

I've been asked 'do you accept WTS as FDS' (or whatever the question is) twice.

The first time was with two elders after I'd stoped going to meetings suddenly: I said somthing like 'to say no makes me an apostate per the WT', then disucssed the dictionary definition of apostacy and heracy and took about 10 minutes to say nothing more except that I wasn't sure (about what???). I got away with that. The nasty conservative elder was frustrated, the happy liberal seemed amused. When they phoned for a second appointment, I said they were always welcome at my place (one of them was) but I had nothing religious to discuss: they never tried again. I was 3rd gen and had been a 'well qualified' MS only a couple of months before.

The second time was a couple of years later and after I'd moved territory. Someone arranged for an elder-pioneer to come around with his wife. He asked the question, slipped into in conversation as one does, and I said I didn't believe in God. He said, 'oh, well that makes it hard to believe in the FDS etc' and he reamained friendly and everything was good. He tried the usual arguments for God which I rebutted politley.

That could have gone badly if he had DF on his mind: but he didn't seem to.

9

Freedom OF religion, or freedom FROM religion .. what do you wish for and why ?

by caliber in

are atheist's covered under the "freedom of religion banner do you think ?

does saying that atheism are not a religion threaten any would be rights therefore ?

how can you protect nothingness or not having a creed ?.

Max Divergent

As BOTR says, this is one of the big points that makes the US materially different to the other western democracies. And it does no credit to the US. Americans and America have done some of the most amazing and meritorious things in human history: but on this point there seems a collective refusal to be rational*, at least on this point and maybe on others, that makes one wonder how Americans have functioned as a nation, let alone acheive what they have achieved.

But I wonder if the trouble they are having now (economy, debt, poverty, corporate excess, social division on "right" / "left" terms, healthcare access /affordability etc) are just different manifestations of the same thinking styles that allows such a big and prominant part of the nation to live by an extreme reliance on the existance of God.

People can beleive in God, and yet act and speak rationally. But too many Americans (and an increasing minority following American-style religions outside the US) just don't. Some talk like madmen and twist facts and reason to accomodate God.

Please, this is neither anti-American nor anti-God comment. It is wonderment that a country as advanced and as well endowned in the best of educational facilities (eg: any school in the so-called Ivy Leauge), the most inventive of people (insert list of grand 'only in America' achievements) and the best of thinkers (insert long list) can have this ugly flip side of bigotry and ignorance and credulity.

* I think it takes a heap of rationality to make a success of a big, complex and powerful nation; there may be other ways to either succeed or measure success that don't rely on rationalism at the core. If there are, I don't know of them.

23

Inside Australia's Chilling New Cult (AJ Miller ex jw)

by frankiespeakin in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml2oa4oigvo.

Max Divergent

I met 'John Miller' (as he called himself then) years ago. My memory is that he was the School Overseer. He had a bit of a following even then: he was the elder people would go to since he was articulate, friendly and didn't seem too quick to judge. He was a professional too (which made him stand out a bit) : he fixed computers. My own experience of him was that he seemed just a bit more friendly that was quite normal (whatever normal is) for anyone, let alone an elder in a conservative congo (but not to the point of being creepy). The rest of the elders seemed hugly less friendly than normal, so he came over quite well on balance.

And I also remember that he could string together words that seemed consistant with WTS teachings, but offended no one: quite an achievement. Maybe that's what drove him to the realisation he's Jesus?

66

So apparently I'm now a Secular Humanist

by Oubliette in

jw
friends

i was doing some research on the subject of beliefs and belief systems when i came across an on-line survey/test that supposedly helps you determine which religion or philosophy is most like your current beliefs.

if you're curious, you can take the quiz here: belief system selector quizafter answering the 20 questions the results were spit out!

tada!!!.

Max Divergent

I, an athiest, did the one from the OP and got 0% JW and 100% secular humanist - accurate enough and no suprise.

Then I did the Christian denomination one for fun and replied 'disagree' with everything (except I said I didn't care if women pastors were allowed: I just couldn't bring myself to agree there should be pastors, regardless of gender) and came out 43% JW!!!! LOL!! I guess that means the JWs disagree with nearly half of what is usual for Christians. It just makes me wonder what the freaking hell 'Unity Church' is: I'm 100% that, whatever it is, according to the test.

(Ok, looked it up, basicaly Christainity for anyone who believes anything, or nothing, and wants a church that won't hassle them).

18

how do you cope with the stress of fading?

by brainmelt in

jw
friends

i'm really struggling with it.

i've been learning the ttatt for the past 6 months now and i've been inadvertantly fading - either one of us or the children have had coughs/colds/flu/chicken pox/stress over the past 3 months which has meant we've missed a lot of meetings and field service with good reason.

we've only been out in service twice this year, so far no ones mentioned it to us but i'm waiting for our group overseer to bring it up anytime soon.

Max Divergent

I hated giving prayers before meals. I really hated it. It was so f'ing stupid. I felt like a dick doing it and that was the first thing I stopped doing: that was my spiritual lead to Mrs D. We went from there.

You said you're the spiritual head - forgive me, but in that f'd up world he is. Let him take the lead. It sounds like he'll lead you to the couch drinking wine. You don't have to do everything: let him take some heat: when the elders come, it's him they'll talk to. The wives and your family will talk to you: blame him - they can't do a damned thing against him except tell their husbands. He just has to parry them off, and he has the right to do that in their world.

Take advantage of their misogyny whenever possible.

535

AAWA is here!! (The Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists)

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcic4g5tulw.

http://www.jwactivists.org.

facebook the association of anti-watchtower activists.

Max Divergent

Will AAWA make a submisison to the Australian Royal Comission on Child Abuse?

Just a simple, short, factual, non-hyped synposis, preferably without commentary, of the media and court reporting from Australia and the WTS' writings on the issue would be impactful and draw the attention of the Commission to the JWs.

45

The CO 'encourages' Julia to meet with THREE elders- the latest episode in the best-selling drama, The Fade of Julia Orwell.

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

it was yesterday morning and hubby and i were having a huge sleep in.

it was just after ten, and with me being a bit flu-ey i was quite capable of staying in bed longer.

hubby was feeling it too, and we were pleasantly drifting in and out to the sounds of birds.. then suddenly, cloomp, cloomp, cloomp up the front stairs, then "rap-rap-rap" on the front screen door, that rapid-fire, strong knock of the practiced door-knocker.

Max Divergent

My Sparky and Snakey came over once and put the loyalty questions: that was after I stepped down, went away for a month and then just never went to a meeting again - a rapid fade. I'd been missing for about three months by the time they came around and put their questions: I went around and around in circles and ended up not answering: they knew it and Snakey told me so. He was trying to strike, but I kept dodging - do you remember the red bellied black snake that just missed Steve Irwin's face? That was me and my Snakey.

Later my Sparky phoned up and asked if he and Snakey could come around again. I said sure, be nice to see you but I have nothing religious to discuss.

That was the end of it. I never heard from them again.

Years later I came in contact with an elder who know who I was: I told him I didn't believe in God. He said he could understand how that made it hard to accept the FDS, Watchtower Society etc. I agreed. It was all fairly amicable and nothing bad happened.

I've been clear of them ever since.

Good luck. But, really, once you're past the stage you're at and down the track a couple of years, I'm not sure what difference it makes if you're DA, DF or just faded to pale. Family etc will treat you however they choose to and many tend toward shunning anyone not going along with it all.

535

AAWA is here!! (The Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists)

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcic4g5tulw.

http://www.jwactivists.org.

facebook the association of anti-watchtower activists.

Max Divergent

Betterdaze - Thanks for checking into the Articles. It's better any chinks and faults that might exist are found and fixed (by AAWA) now: there will, no doubt, be a counter effort against AAWA. Whether that's via legal processes or otherwise, time will tell. Best for supporters' scrutiny to be over everything at a minute level. Well, I think so anyhow.

535

AAWA is here!! (The Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists)

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcic4g5tulw.

http://www.jwactivists.org.

facebook the association of anti-watchtower activists.

Max Divergent

betterdaze: ARTICLE V in the Articles of Incorporation clearly states, " The Corporation shall have no members ."

The corporation may not, but the association has eight board members who seem to make decisions collectivley and could debate with each other if they like.

535

AAWA is here!! (The Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists)

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcic4g5tulw.

http://www.jwactivists.org.

facebook the association of anti-watchtower activists.

Max Divergent

Some people seem to be making criticisms of two main points: 1) the name, and 2) of John Cedars' backing the decisions of the board.

As to the name, I think those holding back support on the basis they think the name inappropriate are either missing the point or rejecting the messy approach of collective action. Not everyone in an association agrees with every action, but they still work together to achieve an objective. Over time they can campaign within the association for what they see, hopefully on good grounds, as a better approach (like a different name if that's their view). But in the meantime they just get on with supporting the group's objectives in accord with its rules. Those holding back support over the name might not be a good fit for a cooperative body, maybe it's better they don't get involved.

On Cedars' defense of board decisions including the name (eg: "... this is how we're doing it. It's not just me, it's the entire board. .... When board decisions are made they need to be stuck to through thick and thin.... Once the board makes a decision it is my job to make sure it is implemented and stuck to no matter what...").

He simply states the truth that as President of the association it is his job to uphold and defend the decisions of the board made in accord with its rules. Maybe he personally agrees with it, maybe he doesn't: that doesn't matter in a formal sense. Unless Arizona or AAWA's rules say differently, all we should hear is the President's support for the decisions of the board until the board makes a different decision, if it ever does. Provided any later decision is made in accord with all relevant rules, then the President's job is to support that decision just as strongly or resign. That's how it works; that's what he's done to date.

Other board members might engage in debate if they wish, preferably with members of the association, but if they happened to want to do so publicly that's up to them. AAWA will live or die by its decisions: no doubt they will listen to and hear public comment, then deliberate and come to a conclusion on whatever matters they think have import on achieving their objectives.

(Can't get rid of the italics: keep coming back once I hit Submit).